Question Time: Brexit special sees David Davis face Starmer, Clegg and Salmond
BREXIT secretary David Davis has taken on a host of Europhile politicians during tonight’s Brexit Britain Question Time special.
David Davis: Most people are in favour of MANAGED immigration
Mr Davis was up against the former deputy prime minister, Nick Clegg, shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer and former Scottish first minister and SNP leader, Alex Salmond.
Joining Mr Davis on the Leave side was Ukip’s deputy chair Suzanne Evans and Times columnist Melanie Phillips during the hour and a half long programme which started at 8.30pm today.
The group of six were in Birmingham for the special BBC programme, normally broadcast on Thursdays, discussing Britain after Brexit, less than 48-hours before Theresa May triggers Article 50 to leave the European Union (EU).
Host David Dimbleby was quizzing the group as usual, while questions were taken from the specially selected audience.
Sir Keir was frequently the firing line by Mr Davis after he announced earlier today Labour will oppose any Brexit deal in a House of Commons vote if it does not meet “six tests”, including offering the “exact same benefits” the single market and the customs union currently provides.
Express.co.uk will be making live updates below as we document the fiery debate.
8.30pm UPDATE: First question is a tough one - should we expect to pay a large Brexit payment?
David Davis said he does not think the £50billion being bandied around will be anything like this.
He refuses to give a figure but he said Michel Barnier will tell him in two weeks time.
Alex Salmond says there will be a massive bill because the EU holds all the cards and the UK will pay the £50bn.
Melanie Phillips says we need to meet our international requirements but attacked Mr Barnier for saying the UK needs to pay this bill.
She said: "It's up to us to wear him down."
She added lawyers disagree, but some have said if there's no deal then we don't have to pay anything at all, which is why Mr Barnier is putting forward the number.
8.34pm UPDATE: One young audience member says the EU is just trying to bully the UK.
Nick Clegg uses a bar tab analogy, saying if you haven't paid the tab for years then you need to settle that tab - which is what the UK has to do.
He added: "This week is the week that things change, that reality sets in.
"When you've been in a club for this long, you settle up, that's what you do."
He said he thinks the final bill won't be decided on until the end of the two years.
Mr Davis asks the audience, imagine if we were a beneficiary not a donor, do you think the EU would continue paying after we left?
20.43pm UPDATE: Suzanne Evans says we should not be paying them a penny.
She added: "I don't know what clubs you're a member of Nick, but I don't know a club where you have to pay them to leave."
Ms Evans added the EU will wanting us to bail them out, not the other way around.
20.44pm UPDATE: Sir Keir Starmer said we need to not have a big row before negotiations have even started and we cannot breach the rules if we want future negotiations to be taken seriously.
20.46pm UPDATE: Next question: Is Theresa May right to say no deal is better than a bad deal?
Mr Clegg disagrees, saying nobody should think a no deal option is good for an economy such as Britain's.
Mr Salmond said he does not understand why anybody would say that because WTO rules - which would be what the UK has if no deal is agreed - would punish the UK through taxes.
He added: "No deal is the worst deal of all and that's why the EU has the upper hand in negotiations.
"It's nonsensical and nobody across this continent believes it."
20.50pm UPDATE: David Davis says the Government has contingency plans for every situation, including massive queues at the Port of Dover.
He said they have spent nine months planning this because "a government plans for every possible situation".
No deal is not an option, says a young lady in the audience.
Melanie Phillips said she does not think there's going to be a "no deal" because Mr Barnier went out of his way to say he wanted a good deal as no deal would be a disaster not just for the UK but for the EU - which is our strongest point.
She also pointed out the WTO rules work very well for other countries.
Sir Keir said it's not just the economics that no deal affects as it could sever any relationship with the EU.
He said as criminal investigations across the EU will be affected without a deal.
20.55pm UPDATE: Suzanne Evans said Sir Keir is bringing back Project Fear and it's "utter nonsense" we would not share information about criminals across borders.
She added if that deal does not give the British what they voted for then no deal is definitely going to be better.
21.00pm UPDATE: An audience member says other countries want to do trade deals with us so it is not right to say no deal will be bad.
Mr Clegg, said he would have sought to bridge the differences in attitude between old and young in the UK but not in the hard Brexit way he believes is happening now.
A man in a stripey tie quizzes Sir Keir on what exactly the Brexit bill will be if he disagrees with Mr Davis.
Sir Keir says anytime a figure or fact is put out in defiance of the Government it is criticised.
Mr Salmond, adds: "As Gordon Brown once said, I agree with Nick, never thought I'd say that.
He added he thinks Mr Davis will have to make so many concessions the UK will not get a good deal.
21.05 UPDATE: Mr Clegg said it's impossible to get frictionles access to a single market but not abide by all the rules.
An audience member said we have a "worldwide market queuing up to trade with us".
Mr Davis said he will not make any apologies for being ambitious in what they try to achieve because that's what this country needs.
A man who works in the car industry said if we have no deal his industry is finished.
Mr Davis said £16bn has been plunged into Britain post-Brexit vote, including Nissan and Google.
Mr Clegg said geography still matters in trade and this illusion we can make up what we lose on our own doorstep is nonsense.
Sir Keir said it's great companies are putting money into the UK but many people he talks to around the country are concerned about tariffs.
He added: "It's really serious stuff, hold the Government to account on this."
Mr Dimbleby asks how Labour can hold the Government to account when it is split.
Sir Keir said Labour has already held the Government to account.
21.10pm UPDATE: Next question - will there be a cap on EU nationals into the UK post-Brexit?
Ms Evans said immigration needs to be sustainable to stop the NHS being stretched, school places are available for them.
She said a cap is "very tricky" because there cannot be any flexibility and she wants a sensible immigration system in which everybody from around the world is treated equally and people should have a job to come to and should not be able to come if they cannot support themselves.
She said Vote Leave did not want no immigration they just wanted controlled immigration.
BBC QT audience member calls the EU "bully" for money demand
21.20pm UPDATE: Sir Keir said EU citizens working in the UK are being used as bargaining chips.
Mr Davis said migration needs to be brought under control of the UK Parliament and the outcome will be in everybody's interest.
He said there will be times when we need more or less, it will be whatever is sustainable.
Mr Salmond said the NHS has had a large drop in applications from EU nurses - 75 per cent at Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham, he says.
Ms Phillips said we have a problem of mass immigration, and we need control over our immigration policy which means we can then bring in who we need.
An audience member from Germany who works in the NHS said we need to be talking about how we can entice EU medics and NHS staff to stay. He said Mr Davis needs to do the decent thing and get them to stay.
Mr Davis says this will be the first issue to be resolved in negotiations.
He added: "We view this as a moral responsbility, people should not worry about this, their position will be underwritten, not just their residency, their welfare, their benefits."
The audience member said Mr Davis does not have much time to solve this because people in the medical industry will move to the country which provides for them the best.
21.26pm UPDATE: An audience member running an international company says if we have a cap we need EU countries to help us out with that.
Sir Keir said businesses and communities he spoke to about immigration, all the businesses said skills would be afffected because the skills we need are not in the UK.
He said that is a political failure.
Mr Salmond said there isn't the same anxiety in Scotland because there's not a family in Scotland who didn't emigrate to Australia, New Zealand, Canada.
The second reason is parts of Scotland have suffered from emmigration with empty schools and villages so they will never fear immigration again
Ms Evans asked him what he's doing wrong in Scotland.
321.30pm UPDATE: Next question - Is Brexit going to split or unite the union?
Ms Phillips said one part of a country cannot hold the rest to ransom and the Scots are extremely level-headed and sensible individuals who can see what leaving the UK will do to the Scottish economy will be to its disadvantage.
She said she does not think it will happen and it's jumping the gun.
She added no material will happen until the Brexit deal is done so the Scots would not know what they are voting for.
21.35pm UPDATE: Big claps for the man who said he believes Scotland is blackmailing the UK Government and Scotland will continue to call an independence referendum everytime they do not like something.
Mr Salmond tries to defend Nicola Sturgeon's decision to call a referendum, saying she was not consulted about the Article 50 letter and was just doing what she said she would do in her election promise.
He said there have been no serious meetings over Brexit yet.
Mr Davis said all the devolved governments have met many times with him after the Brexit vote so any accusations they are being left out in the cold is not true.
21.40pm UPDATE: One audience member says people are fed up as the politicians are now just arguing when voters have no say as to the final Brexit deal.
Sir Keir brings up his 'six tests' theory which he says will make a deal work for everyone - those who voted In and Out.
He accused Mrs May of taking an isolationist approach which is not helping.
21.45pm UPDATE: A woman wearing a blue top says Scotland is "moving the goalposts" by holding an independence referendum.
He said Mrs May is breaching her word and faith by not telling Ms Sturgeon what the Article 50 letter is before it is sent.
Mr Clegg said nationalism is not a solution to the world's problems and the SNP have jumped opportunistically into an independent referendum.
He said it has put them in a difficult position which did not need to happen.
Mr Clegg said the majority of young people voted in and Brexit is taking away their future - he does not mention how he promised to get rid of tuition fees when he went into government with David Cameron.
21.50pm UPDATE: Mr Davis is getting very heated - "The British people voted to leave the EU, not stay half in, half out."
Zubair Khan asks if the British people should have a vote on the final Brexit deal.
Mr Davis said June 23 was a point of no return and when Parliament voted to have a referendum, they did in their droves.
He said another referendum will give us the worst possible deal and another one would give us the worst deal in the hope we would vote to stay in because of what we contributed to the EU.
Sir Keir said Labour intends to use the Parliamentary vote on the deal to hold them to account, MPs will ask them to go back and negotiate further if it's not the best deal.
He said he hopes it will be a transitional arrangement in March 2019 and you can't have a referendum on that so it will not happen.
9.55pm UPDATE: Mr Salmond said the vote in the House of Commons will be totally artificial because there's a two year time limit and you cannot have a referendum on the final deal without holding another general election.
A young lady says she cannot trust the Government to get the best deal when they have not done what they promised before.
Ms Phillips said there is a problem in trust but she thinks so much of the argument is the Remainers way of turning the British people.
She added: "If I hear the terms Hard Brexit and Soft Brexit again I shall throw up. There is simply Brexit.
"Soft Brexit means keeping us within the EU Rules which is half in half out."
9.57pm UPDATE: Mr Clegg is quoting Mr Davis saying: "If a democracy cannot change its mind then it ceases to be a democracy."
Ms Evans said we cannot carry on having referendum after referendum.
Sir Keir said he accepts the Brexit result but there is not just one type - he believes there can be a collaborative relationship with Europe.
And that's that, the show could have gone on all night but we will now have to wait for updates after Mrs May sends that Article 50 letter to the EU on Wednesday.